探讨 创造论

soonjessy

创造论+救赎轮 + 末世论
是连贯的东西， 创造论是重要的， 但教会却避而不谈， 只着重于 救赎 与末世
希望大家可以在这里探讨对创始论有和见解。

除了创造那7 天,我们还可以谈什么？


http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/f/19274995.html
大家可以读读
杨牧谷 写的 坏鬼神学

ps://本人的言论在第7 个帖子，请到那里过目一下，以便交流，若有错误，渴求得到大家的纠正。

freeman_long

创造论+救赎轮 + 末世论
是连贯的东西， 创造论是重要的， 但教会却避而不谈， 只着重于 救赎 与末世
希望大家可以在这里探讨对创始论有和见解。

除了创造那7 天,我们还可以谈什么？

http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/f/19274995.html
大家可以读读
杨牧谷 写的 坏鬼神学

楊牧谷是一位很好的聖經教師，我的教會（地方召會）經常引用他的話。

soonjessy

freeman_long 发表于 7-1-2014 04:40 PM
楊牧谷是一位很好的聖經教師，我的教會（地方召會）經常引用他的話。

请问你是哪间教会的呢？

freeman_long

soonjessy 发表于 10-1-2014 04:23 PM
请问你是哪间教会的呢？

我的教會，大家稱為〝地方召會〞，或〝地方教會〞。
但實際上我教會的名字並不是〝地方召會〞，而是〝召會〞，或〝在XX地的召會〞。
因着我是在吉隆坡，因此我的教會就是〝在吉隆坡的召會〞。
若我到了新加坡，那麼，我的教會的名字就是〝The Church in Singapore〞（在新加坡的召會 ）

不知弟兄您有觀念了嗎？

弟兄您呢？
楊牧谷是你們的牧師嗎？

freeman_long

soonjessy 发表于 10-1-2014 04:23 PM
请问你是哪间教会的呢？

楊牧谷也有討論到〝地方教會〞（地方召會）：

http://letsthinkagain.lefora.com/topic/3958879/#.Us-_KPvkxdE

當然，各人有自己的看法，重要的是聖經怎麼說。

bashlyner

有什么好谈？不怕出丑么？

soonjessy

bashlyner 发表于 10-1-2014 10:53 PM
有什么好谈？不怕出丑么？

看似简单的话题，往往是大家最容易忽视的东西
上帝为什么要创造?谈论我们的存在
--> 上帝的创造和上帝的存在 是超自然的
---> 上帝创造人类也是超因果的：我们并不是欠缺上帝什么，我们和上帝自己没有一个因果的关系

当我们在思考上帝的创造的时候，我们不能只用理性，也要用及感性，此话怎么说呢？
当我们要去理解宗教信仰的深度，我们将更为关注那些人所无法表达的东西（上帝是从哪里来的），而不是人可以说出来的东西。
-当把信仰的观念彤信仰本身完全分割来研究是不行的
-如果一棵植物被从泥土之中连根拔起，离开了它所赖以生存的风、阳光和土壤环境，把它放在温室中-----那么，对这棵植物进行的观察，能解释它的自己本性吗？（是不可以的）
那为什么人不能用完全的理性去理解上帝？
-其实问题本身就存着一个问题： 我们不能以 人 要怎样去解释上帝， 而是我们要怎样去理解上帝。 这连个的statement 是不同的
- 在加上，人的理性到底可以去到那种极限，为何我们不能完全用理性去曲解上帝的存在
-例子： 在非洲（到现在）依然有一群 植物园园主 理性的认为 黑奴制度是很正常的，他们理性的认为这样的制度并没有触犯到人权

那七天上帝到底创造了什么？
在前6天，上帝考虑的是 善，第七天祂创造了神圣
-这就是为什么宗教和哲学不能相提并论，因为哲学对于‘善’这个理念是最完美的，但对于《圣经》 而言，善的理念却要退居其次；
若没有神圣，它就不能存在；神圣是本质，而善是它的代表。

大家有是否想过，创始论难道就在 神创造的那7天就停止了吗？
基于杨牧谷博士的言论里，‘救赎’ 是上帝创造的
末世有很多未知数，但那个未来也将是上帝也会继续创造的东西
简单来说，上帝的创造并未结束！

soonjessy

freeman_long 发表于 10-1-2014 05:35 PM
我的教會，大家稱為〝地方召會〞，或〝地方教會〞。
但實際上我教會的名字並不是〝地方召會〞，而是〝 ...

你好，
本人是姐妹
杨牧谷并不是我们教会的牧师，但他的言论收集在 《坏鬼神学》一书里有谈论到关于创造论
本人看了他对创造论的分享，觉得是值得一看也值得去思考的一个话题，
这话题对我来说很新鲜，也是在教会极少会谈及的课题。
希望在此可以与大家分享谈论学习心得。
我的感想已些在 帖子7
若有何错误的，渴求得到您的回复与评论

相信本人在您的分享中，会得着新的学问。

在此谢谢您关注这帖子。

shengwei95

bashlyner 发表于 10-1-2014 10:53 PM
有什么好谈？不怕出丑么？

看来又要再帖多一次了。

全文：
http://www.douban.com/group/topic/4346930/


Now the fact that the Bible tells us there is "evening and morning Day One" (and not "a first day") comes to teach us time from a Biblical perspective. Einstein proved that time varies from place to place in the universe, and that time varies from perspective to perspective in the universe. The Bible says there is "evening and morning Day One".

圣经说晚上早晨一天。不是第一天。爱因斯坦证明时间随空间的变化而变化。

Now if the Torah were seeing time from the days of Moses and Mount Sinai -- long after Adam -- the text would not have written Day One. Because by Sinai, hundreds of thousands of days already passed. There was a lot of time with which to compare Day One. Torah would have said "A First Day." By the second day of Genesis, the Bible says "a second day," because there was already the First Day with which to compare it. You could say on the second day, "what happened on the first day." But as Nahmanides pointed out, you could not say on the first day, "what happened on the first day" because "first" implies comparison -- an existing series. And there was no existing series. Day One was all there was.

如果圣经从摩西和西奈山开始，就不存在“一天”。因为从亚当到摩西，成千上万的天已经过去了。第二天有它的固定参照时间，就是第一天。有第二天才有第一天这个概念。所以圣经是一天，不是第一天，虽然是第二天相对的第一天。一天day one不存在相对的参照时间，是自有的。

Even if the Torah was seeing time from Adam, the text would have said "a first day", because by its own statement there were six days. The Torah says "Day One" because the Torah is looking forward from the beginning. And it says, How old is the universe? Six Days. We'll just take time up until Adam. Six Days. We look back in time, and say the universe is approximately 15 billion years old. But every scientist knows, that when we say the universe is 15 billion years old, there's another half of the sentence that we never say. The other half of the sentence is: The universe is 15 billion years old as seen from the time-space coordinates that we exist in on earth. That's Einstein's view of relativity. But what would those billions of years be as perceived from near the beginning looking forward?

圣经的一天是从宇宙第一天的角度看的。150亿年是从时空相对来看的。就是爱因斯坦的相对论。

The key is that the Torah looks forward in time, from very different time-space coordinates, when the universe was small. But since then, the universe has expanded out. Space stretches, and that stretching of space totally changes the perception of time.

宇宙的膨胀完全改变了时间的概念。

Imagine in your mind going back billions of years ago to the beginning of time. Now pretend way back at the beginning of time, when time grabs hold, there's an intelligent community. (It's totally fictitious.) Imagine that the intelligent community has a laser, and it's going to shoot out a blast of light, and every second it's going to pulse. Every second --- pulse. Pulse. Pulse. It shoots the light out, and then billions of years later, way far down the time line, we here on Earth have a big satellite dish, and we receive that pulse of light. And on that pulse of light is imprinted (printing information on light is called fiber optics - sending information by light), "I'm sending you a pulse every second." And then a second goes by and the next pulse is sent.

假设在宇宙初期每秒发出一个脉冲。

Light travels 300 million meters per second. So the two light pulses are separated by 300 million meters at the beginning. Now they travel through space for billions of years, and they're going to reach the Earth billions of years later. But wait a minute. Is the universe static? No. The universe is expanding. That's the cosmology of the universe.And that does not mean it's expanding into an empty space outside the universe.There's only the universe. There is no space outside the universe. The universe expands by its own space stretching. So as these pulses go through billions of years of traveling, the universe and space are stretching. As space is stretching, what's happening to these pulses? The space between them is also stretching.So the pulses really get further and further apart.

光速是每秒299 792 458米（约3亿米）。如果宇宙是静止的，2个脉冲之间相距3亿米。宇宙的膨胀不是膨胀到宇宙以外的真空。宇宙以外没有空间。怎么膨胀都只有宇宙。当脉冲旅行的时候，宇宙和空间在膨胀。那么2个脉冲之间的距离也在膨胀。故2个脉冲之间也越拉越远。

Billions of years later, when the first pulse arrives, we say, "Wow - a pulse!" And written on it is "I'm sending you a pulse every second." You call all your friends, and you wait for the next pulse to arrive. Does it arrive another second later? No! A year later? Maybe not. Maybe billions of years later. Because depending on how much time this pulse of light has traveled through space, will determine the amount of stretching of space between the pulses. That's standard astronomy.

宇宙初期如果发出一个脉冲，你收到的时间决定于这个光的脉冲穿过空间的时间，决定了2个脉冲之间空间膨胀的量。这就是标准天文学。

15 billion or six days?
Today, we look back in time. We see 15 billion years. Looking forward from when the universe is very small -- billions of times smaller -- the Torah says six days. They both may be correct.

宇宙被造的时候是很小的。数十亿倍小。圣经的6天和150亿年是一样的。

What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning, relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. Any one of a dozen physics text books all bring the same number.

近几年宇宙学的发现解释了 宇宙开始的时间观和现在的时间观之间的联系。这不是科幻。从10几本物理教科书里任选一本，都是同样的宇宙年龄。

The general relationship between time near the beginning when stable matter formed from the light (the energy, the electromagnetic radiation) of the creation) and time today is a million million, that is a trillion fold extension. That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. It is a unit-less ratio.

当稳定物质通过光（创造的能量，电磁射线）被形成的时候的时间到现在已经被放大成了1万亿倍。1万亿是1后面12个0。这种倍数是没有量词的。

So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see it every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe. In astronomy, the term is "red shift." Red shift in observed astronomical data is standard.

在宇宙初期如果每秒发出一个脉冲，我们可以每秒收到这个脉冲吗？不行。只能每万亿秒收到一次。因为这是宇宙拉伸扩张的结果。天文学叫这个“红移”（意译）。红移通过天文学的观测是标准的。

The Torah doesn't say every second, does it? It says Six Days. How would we see those six days? If the Torah says we're sending information for six days, would we receive that information as six days? No. We would receive that information as six million million days. Because the Torah's perspective is from the beginning looking forward.

Six million million days is a very interesting number. What would that be in years? Divide by 365 and it comes out to be 16 billion years. Essentially the estimate of the age of the universe. Not a bad guess for 3300 years ago.

这样圣经的开始的6天就是现在的6万亿天。除以365天，160亿年。宇宙的大概年龄。对于3300年以前所书写的创世纪来说，这个结论是奇妙的。

The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step.

Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.

(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)

但是作为一个科学家，我不能变魔术，我只能一步一步证明解释我的结论。

在往下，每次宇宙翻倍，时间就被折半。宇宙很小的时候，翻倍很快。宇宙变大后，翻倍的时间需要更长。这个扩张率被世界上教科书称为：物理宇宙学的原则。

如果你想知道，这个扩张率有一个特定的数平均在10－12级力。实际上是夸克(理论上设想的三种不带整电荷的更基本的粒子通称)制约，当物质被能量凝固：10.9倍10－12级力开氏度(摄氏度+273.16), 除以宇宙今天的温度2.73度。就是宇宙膨胀时的最初率，最初率按指数变化。

The calculations come out to be as follows:

计算结果如下:

The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.

圣经第一天, 从时间的开端角度看，是24小时。但从我们的时间长度来看就是8 billion 年。

The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.

第二天，从我们角度就是前一天的1半－4 billion 年。

The third 24 hour day also included half of the previous day, 2 billion years.

第三天前一天的一半－2billion年。

The fourth 24 hour day -- one billion years.

类推，第四天1billion年。

The fifth 24 hour day -- one-half billion years.
第五天：半个billion年。

The sixth 24 hour day -- one-quarter billion years.
第6天，四分之一billion年。

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

6天加起来就是宇宙年龄15＋3/4 billion年.和现代宇宙学一样.是巧合吗?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.

还有更奇妙的. 圣经也告诉你那6天发生了什么. 现在你可以拿起宇宙学,古生物学, 考古学, 并看看世界的历史, 看看是不是一天一天都符合. 我可以给你一点提示, 他们重合得足以让你大吃一惊.

Click here to purchase Dr. Schroeder's book, Genesis and the Big Bang.

可以买Schroeder博士的书《创世纪和大爆炸》有比以上全部更详细的论述。

freeman_long

soonjessy 发表于 11-1-2014 04:57 AM
你好，
本人是姐妹
杨牧谷并不是我们教会的牧师，但他的言论收集在 《坏鬼神学》一书里有谈论到关于创造 ...

soonjessy姐妹妳好：

對於聖經所記神七天的創造，許多人有不同的詮釋。
若把聖經這處話載當作科學來研究，神的創造豈不顯得太簡略了？若是由我們來寫神的創造過程，肯定就沒有這麼簡短了。
既然聖靈推動人這樣寫，必有祂的道理。

什麼道理？

這道理就是：『神七天創造的過程，正是我們經歷神的種種過程。』

例如，原本我們裡面的〝心地〞是『空虛混沌，淵面黑暗』，但我們一聽到神的福音的剎那，神的靈在我們裡面黑暗且又亂如水的心地運行的時候，彷彿就有光照射進來，這樣一來，原本我們黑暗的裡面就有了光照，並且這光就把光暗分開來了，有晚上有早上。以前全都是晚上，沒有白晝，現在有晚上又有白晝了，這是因為光進來了。這就是第一天的經歷。

至於第二天至第七天又是怎樣的經歷，可讀一讀以下的文章：

聖經之旅

創世記生命讀經

soonjessy

谢谢你们的分享，让我得着更多

hawmes

shengwei95 发表于 11-1-2014 03:46 PM
看来又要再帖多一次了。

全文：

这样圣经的开始的6天就是现在的6万亿天。除以365天，160亿年。宇宙的大概年龄。对于3300年以前所书写的创世纪来说，这个结论是奇妙的。

  

宇宙的年齡是138億年,不是160億年
宇宙的年齡wiki

在往下，每次宇宙翻倍，时间就被折半。宇宙很小的时候，翻倍很快。宇宙变大后，翻倍的时间需要更长。
这个扩张率被世界上教科书称为：物理宇宙学的原则。


圣经第一天, 从时间的开端角度看，是24小时。但从我们的时间长度来看就是8 billion 年。
第二天，从我们角度就是前一天的1半－4 billion 年。
第三天前一天的一半－2billion年。
类推，第四天1billion年。
第五天：半个billion年。
第6天，四分之一billion年。

第一段和第二段的描述是互相矛盾的(宇宙一直膨脹變大,"翻倍"的時間却一直縮小????????????????)
這是甚麼博士,叫他從小學開始重新學習吧!

shengwei95老弟你也是,拜託,求你,
先把文章看懂,分析後再貼出來.不要教笨我們的下一代,好嗎?

kkyong85

shengwei95 发表于 11-1-2014 07:46 AM
看来又要再帖多一次了。

全文：

朋友，
我实实在在问你一句。。。
你老老实实回答我，

你真的相信这样的“合理化”吗？
你心里真的没有丝毫的怀疑？

Ecor1

shengwei95 发表于 11-1-2014 03:46 PM
看来又要再帖多一次了。

全文：

还是不合理
如果制造地球需要三天，那么制造太阳是需要100，000天=几千亿年？？

bashlyner

哈哈自欺欺人的感觉很好么？整个创造论荒谬的地方多的去了 - 天数的问题，银河系和地球的先后次序问题，进化论的问题，诺亚方舟的荒谬问题，每个都要找理由来硬掰，真难为基督教徒了。

http://www.huecotanks.com/debunk/genesis.html

JowY

e=mc2 发表于 18-1-2014 10:40 AM
我认为，第一天，第二天等等，是说明创世的次序，不一定代表时间的长短或创造所需的时间。

不单纯做字面解释，多多思考，太好了
希望大家多多向学习这种精神，不要过度偏向原教旨主义

cikmekyee

JowY 发表于 18-1-2014 10:11 PM
不单纯做字面解释，多多思考，太好了
希望大家多多向学习这种精神，不要过度偏向原教旨主义

上神学课时，神师说：圣经是文学批判，不适合做字面解释。

文学评释=literary criticism 是解读圣经的方法之一。台湾称为文学批判