魔兽世界（台）还有人在吗？？

Ghostz

World of Warcraft Difficulty Changes Feedback

原文
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/?page=31

Complexity gives people more to learn, thus prolonging the life of a game because every time you think you've mastered something, there's always something new to learn.
Throw too much complexity to a game, and then suddenly you're not prolonging its life, but rather, overwhelming newcomers

The people that are usually the most adamant against complexity are the ones that don't have the patience to learn something properly and demand that it be lowered to their level so they can "enjoy everything right off the bat".

As long as you have a challenge at some level on the game (for some it will be Heroic Sha of Fear, for others it will be Shado-Pan Monastery Challenge Mode trying to get gold, for others it'll be Garalon Normal, for others getting to 2.5k rating on PVP... I could go on) what's the harm if things are made more accessible to other players? (As long as you have your challenge)

The LFR is a great example of this, instant gratification with absolutely no commitment required. No preparation required, no need to know what the bosses do, no nothing. Just go in, spam 3-4 buttons and you're done.

And you want this to be encouraged? Christ, modern gamers make the mind boggle.

It's not quite instant gratification (you have to defeat the boss, do the whole run, etc etc), neither on the same level of rewards that players get for completing Normal of Heroic content

I disagree. Lets look at raids (I didnt do any at MOP, but know them quite well). At Vanilla it took a good guild to clear a new raid several weeks. A medicore guild or casual, some months. Today you join the LFR and a few hours later you have finished the content. Do you see the big difference there? In vanilla you were busy for many weeks, today for several hours.

In vanilla you had a real competition within your faction. You always had to be better than the other players, you had to win a lot and these BG´s did last 1 or 2 hours. Today you have 5 min arena games where a fotm wins. But even if you dont win, you will be a winner at the end of the season. Again, its missing the depth.

That's not depth. Content in vanilla required more preparation, but bosses were much, much easier than today's Heroic content.

The duration of the content doesn't have much to do with the depth of the game. In fact, there's much more depth and complexity in overcoming your opposition on a Rated Battleground today (as strategies keep evolving as the community does and teams can be very coordinated) as opposed to trying to cap Lumber Mill for the 100th time with a bunch of strangers that refuse to stay in their bases and would rather camp the roads

I dont deny that you can do more things today, but the "how" is what matters and there wow has lost a lot of its depth and fun.

Many of the things that have been mentioned on discussions like this have to do with "the grind" more than the activity itself.

Was Battleguard Sartura a fun encounter in Ahn'Qiraj? Sure, it was.
Was it incredibly fun to farm the resistance sets required for some bosses back then? I'm not so sure there's going to be a common agreement there...

Ghostz

Is WoW Losing its Epicness?

原文
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/?page=32


With prestigious I mean the players that go all in and really gives their heart and soul to clear the most difficult encounters, setting a benchmark for the rest of us to strive for. While these players are a small % to the community as a whole, they are the forerunners and give others an incentive to push a little harder to get further. This is now slowly getting trivialized with pokemon, cute pandas, transmogs, LFR, daily rep gear better than raid gear etc etc.

This is where most arguments just lose it (for me, of course). You might, of course, strive to achieve what others have done, but projecting that same impression onto a majority doesn't really work. The fact is, most of the players probably can't even name the best raiding guild in the world, because they just don't care. So they might give an incentive to push to some folks, absolutely (those in the raiding competition, most likley).

Then you go on and proceed to argue that these other things that have nothing to do with bleeding edge progression raiding, for some reason, "dumb down" the game, when, in fact, it's just expanding the amount of choices you have at your disposal.

If the game loses it's focus on skills and perseverance, we're only left with the social aspects and I don't really see why we just couldn't sit on FB and play farmville or some pokemon app there?

If that's what you feel WoW offers to you, then I'm afraid you are not really looking at what those activities actually have to offer to any player that wants to do something else than bleeding edge progression raiding.

This paragraph makes it sounds like the 'prestigious raiders' are climbing Everest to collect medical supplies or something. They are people spending a lot of time on a computer game, not war heroes. I for one do not aspire to be like them, I just want to enjoy playing Wow.

Coriandra sums pretty well how some players feel. While for some of you raiding is everything that exists in WoW, for others is high-end PVP, for others is doing 5-man with their friends, challenge modes, scenarios, pet batlles, heck, it might be just flying around Azeroth just because they can.

The thing is, in a game as massive as World of Warcraft you can make of it whatever you want to, and it can't be a bad answer. As long as you have fun, and feel like you're getting from the game something worth it, then there's no real harm if some people just want to PVP all day long, or if some players would rather see all raid content through Raid Finder without caring at all about world firsts.

Also, please realize that some of the casual players of today, will be the hardcore players of tomorrow; and some, if not all hardcores of today, will be the casuals of tomorrow. There's no benefit in acting like it's two separate ponds that aren't connected and pretending you will always be part of this one pond.

Based on what some of you have commented and what I saw yesterday both here on the forums and on Twitter, I'm just curious...

Why do you feel the game has been dumbed down when, in fact, heroic raid bosses (for example) are increasingly harder? You've probably seen even players arguing that this tier in Normal feels harder than it should as well.

I mean, I totally understand you feel the game is easier than before, but consider three things:
-If you're a dedicated player, your skill will improve at some point, and (most likely) at early stages your improvement will be more dramatic, so the room to make the game harder without being outright silly (numerically or mechanically) gets smaller (which should help put in perspective the amazing work developers do when coming up with new boss fight mechanics and concepts).

-Heroic raiding content is increasingly more difficult (just compare Heroic Ragnaros to Heroic Sha of Fear and to Kil'jaeden, both mechanics wise and leeway to meet enrage timers, etc)

-Most of the things you mention as being dumbed down don't really seem to target you. But rather a different segment of players that might still be getting the hang of the game or don't want/can't devote as much of their time into the game as they would like.

Considering all this, how does it affect you in a negative way (assuming that you are at the high-end spectrum) that the game is more accessible or there are more things to do for players that are not you specifically?

"Raiding is too Difficult and Time Consuming"
Like why do I have to sit around in normals for 3 months wiping 8 hours a week to get anywhere? It was cool to release 3 raids, but whats the point if you're gonna make them so hard no one will even get to the second one before next tier? I thought normals were supposed to be easy and hms were supposed to be the hard raids? Wiping isn't fun... bring back DS difficulty. That was perfect for normals, people could actually do them in a respectable amount of time.

I can commiserate with your feelings, but the best thing you can do is share with us specifically what encounters or issues you're having. It may be something we may need to look at and address on our end, or it may be something that other players can give you additional insight on to make the encounters seem less difficult for you.

As I see it, these are the things that could be affecting how you and your Raid team are performing:

• You've found a bug or an imbalance in an encounter that's causing you issues.
• Your Raid team may not be using solid achievable tactics to approach the encounters and may need to refine them more.
• Members of your Raid team may not have the most appropriate gear for the encounters. which can cause additional burden on other members who do have appropriate gear.
• Members of the Raid team may need to change spell rotations or even talent options for specific encounters
  

Again, I think by citing specific issues and problems, you may find better success in overcoming them.

Ghostz

Content Difficulty Feedback

原文
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/?page=34


the comparison made the console games - i completely agree. this is an MMORPG. why should it require 3 seperate difficulty levels? this is NOT a console game, it should not be adjustable to suit any 1 persons play style on principle of the genre. dont even try to twist this point. MMORPG's are Mass Multiplayer, more than a few peoples ideas are required to completely overhaul a part of the system such as raids. you even created LFR to solve this problem. just because they want to select a higher difficulty does NOT mean it should be made easier. i don't go on to call of duty and select Veteran difficulty as a noob and expect it to be easy, and anyone who does is NOT worth affecting the play styles of others.

World of Warcraft is neither the first MMO to have varying levels of difficulty, nor the only one. You can't compare it to a completely different game (Call of Duty) as it doesn't even share the same genre nor the same design philosophies or game design.

If you look at the MMO world you'll see other titles do also adjust the difficulty of their content, in fact, there's a very popular case of such a boss in another MMO, which I won't name here for obvious reasons.

You killing normal Elegon doesn't effect my HC Elegon. When you come and ask MY elegon to be nerfed, then it affects my game. Otherwise i wouldn't care less what they do with 'your' Elegon as long as I can try and kill 'my' Elegon or wipe on 'my elegon' till i learn to move from the floor in time

It's not "your" heroic Elegon though (neither "their" normal Elegon). But there's something that has been said on this thread that is true. As much as some hardcore players love to blame the casuals when 'their' content has been nerfed in the past, the fact is, you'll rarely see threads asking for heroic bosses to be nerfed. Sure, you'll find the occasional thread here and there, but it's far from common.

Let me make it clearer by an example: We were slowly but surely progressing on spine of deathwing when the nerfs started rolling in. Beat spine when it was nerfed by 10%, and Madness when it was nerfed 15%. This made us feel cheated. We did not feel that we had succeeded in killing those bosses the way they were meant to be killed, it even borderlined on a feeling of shame, as there was another top guild on the server that beat both at 0% 3 weeks earlier

3 weeks earlier? Did they turn the debuff off? Because in fact, it took 3 months for the debuff to go from 0% to 15%:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3599256 (5%, January 31)
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3746119 (10%, February 28)
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3899863 (15%, March 26)

But still, it's a fair point that your accomplishment felt diminished because of a debuff tackled on the boss. That's the reason why in Mists of Pandaria there're the "Cutting Edge" achievements for the three final Heroic bosses of the current tier (in fact, on the Patch 5.2 PTR they currently read "defeated before the discovery of Throne of Thunder), so although this isn't Dragon Soul and there're no nerfs in place, you have a good reason to actually try to chase those kills and earn a reward that will, no doubt, be rare among raiders come 5.2. You'll be able to show that Feat of Strength and say "I killed it before 5.2".

Also, we didn't have the Item Upgrade system that is available right now (although it'll be going away with the arrival of 5.2, at least temporarily), so the panorama you're looking at right now is vastly different than that of Dragon Soul, even if it feels like not that much has happened since then

暴雪不只推出低難度的LFR,甚至連普通程度的團隊副本也遭殃

Content Difficulty Feedback

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/?page=35

Skill has nothing to do with it imo. It's the mentality of most players.

People who are terrible at something think they deserve to see all the content, because they pay as much as us. Blizzard gives in to these players, by giving them epics for doing dailies or LFR, or the 'Heroic' dungeon, or nerfing content down,... so why should they bother to try and get better in the game?

Well, those "terrible players" do pay as much as you do, so that much is true and can not really be used as an argument. But you seem to correlate the presence of epic rewards on certain areas of the game with mentality of these players, which is not necessarily the case. A player can be incredibly hardcore in mentality and just not have the time to devote on his life to get into the content tailored to the hardcore audience. It's not mutually exclusive.

It's also these kind of people that don't achieve as much in life, cause life doesn't get 'nerfed' for them. those people think they should earn as much pay as a guy who works 10 times as hard as them because they wear the same uniform. Lazy people are lazy

By this definition, we can assume that Warren Buffet and Carlos Slim are very skilled hardcore raiders with all content on farm since day 1...

It doesn't make much sense, does it? That's the issue with these kind of arguments, it's just demeaning for the sake of it. One could argue the exact opposite and it'd be just as bad (successful in a game = failure in real life), so, please, please, store this arguments somewhere safe, cast them into the depths of the sea, and never use them again.

As stated wow has something for all: farmville and heroic raids, to put it bluntly. But why nerf hc raids when there is farmville for those that don't want to have a hardcore gaming experience? That's what bothering me. As I said before, some nerfs are justified, but having the last raid of an expansion nerfed through the bottom so that 'everyone can see it' while LFR was invented for that is what's beating me.

Perhaps you're looking at it from the wrong perspective? I mean, it sounds like you believe it's the players that are interested on doing just The Tillers and taking care of Sunsong Ranch the ones that want to do heroic raiding and have issues with it. Why not think about those players that are progressing through heroic raids and just can't overcome a particular boss? Would you prefer they'd rather quit altogether if they become blocked somewhere? What benefit do you get of it in that case? (assuming you have progressed through that boss, of course).

Most people in today's WoW don't care about the epic challenges, don't care about becoming better at the game, they just want to hop in and play and smack some enemies.

Do you think most of the players back in vanilla wanted to become better at the game?

example of flawed logic: player B fails in certain challenge. player B cares not to improve. player B says content is too hard and requests nerf. blizzard checks. player A has completed it. blame is laid to player A to being selfish.

First, you assume "player B cares not to improve". You just can't know. You assume it's not the case because in your opinion, if he cared, he'd take down the boss. The fact is, it's much more complex than that. Even if player B wants to improve, he may not be able to devote the amount of time he'd need to improve.

Then you mention "blame is laid to player A to being selfish", which is not the case, at all. Why would player A be blamed at all in the first place? What's been said, though, is that, more often than not, player A will go and say "No! Don't nerf it! Make them climb the same rope I had to!", despite player B indicating that he just can't.

But lets step away from myself and see the bigger picture of nerfing content. From what I understand from the blogpost Draztal posted, Blizzard consider "nerfing" content when they see dips in the rate of how guilds progress. I can understand the reasoning behind this, but I cant see why it would be a good thing in the long run. Because what you essentially do then is killing motivation. There is no need to nerf heroics. Eventually people will outgear it so much that the "fail threshold" is so high that most people will kill it. It might take a content patch or two, but just wait!

Let's imagine you have 50 raid groups, and you are designing 10 bosses per raid, 1 raid per tier, for 5 consecutive tiers. On your first raid, 47 groups clear all bosses, 3 quit because they got stuck in boss 7 and after weeks of trying, they've got the memo: with the current gear, they don't have the skill for this game, and they'd rather spend their time elsewhere doing something fun than wait weeks to be behind others anyways.

On your second raid, since it went so well (47 out of 50) you decide to tune content a bit tighter, and 39 out of those 47 clear all bosses. On your third ray, again, you tune content a bit tighter than before, 26 out of 39 clear it all. On your fourth raid, one notch more in difficulty, and 12 out of 26 clear everything. By your fifth raid, your original audience (50 groups) has been reduced to 12, and the time invested in each raid, has been increasingly wasted.

If you look at it that way, it might be easier to see what the negative effect would be in the long run if people get left behind; which is kind of what happened in The Burning Crusade with Sunwell Plateau or Naxxramas in Classic, as raid groups were encountering walls on a given boss, they were unable to progress at all or for extended periods of time, so, by the time the 4 Horsemen first kill was achieved, most of the raiding groups hadn't even stepped into the instance.


What I don't agree with here is that you seem to indicate that every guild that can not clear a said instance on heroic mode while it's the main active content vanishes. That's most definitly not true. As a semi-hardcore raider with 10-12h raiding a week, I would never expect to clear an entire raid instance on heroic, especially not with optional heroic bosses at the end. Ulduar and the first tier in Cataclysm are perfect examples. There was always a boss to progress on that was only a little bit more difficult than the previous one, yet nothing was completely dumbed down while it was still active content. They were my two absolute favourite tiers and I didn't end up clearing them completely on Heroic mode until the tier after.

Perhaps it was an example a bit too simple, you're definitely right, not every guild that can't clear an instance in heroic while it's current content vanishes. It wasn't an example related to WoW though, but rather on why one could have an interest in revisiting fights and lowering the difficulty of some of its aspects.

Well, I surely felt like more people were up for exploring, and stuff like that than nowadays. It feels like it's much more about "must cap this, must do this, must blabla must blabla". The overall feeling of some kind of rush, that's what I feel is much more dominant in the playerbase nowadays.

When we play a new game (which WoW was to all of us in vanilla) there is a sense of discovery, of confusion/lack of familiarity and so on, that slowly fades over time as we get familiar with the game. It's certainly a feeling that I miss myself from time to time.

That is something people seem not to understand including the blue here. They have given us the content - and regardless how much everyone pays they do not need/deserve same reward just because they pay the monthly fee.

The "they do not need" part might be easier to discuss. Some players just don't need PVP content at all (in fact they wouldn't mind if it was entirely removed from the game, the same aplies to PVE content from the perspective of some PVP players).

But... they do not deserve? That's a really tall claim. By what order? What gaming principle does make a player worthy of completing something?


Monthly fee means access to servers and content, and it should be players OWN Actions that reward you not just getting rewarded for logging in and existing as entity.

But this hyperbole, as much as it gets thrown around when these topics come out, is just not true. Noone is rewarded just for logging in. The only thing a nerf does is set a lower bar, you still have to overcome a certain level of challenge and perhaps diminish the sense of achievement of players that defeated a boss on its harder incarnation. But that's quite far away from "being rewarded just for existing as an entity".


So basically what this teaches them is that you dont have to work for things in life.
So when they actually get sick of sitting at home infront of their computer all day and want to enjoy life instead they are so very brainwashed by the "OMG HARD!! Nerf!" mentallity that they cant grasp the fact that you have to work for what you want to acomplish in life.

How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

while you might have a point, you totally disregard the fact that guilds keep forming, disbanding, merging, splitting, re-forming etc. there's a constant stream of players between guilds. so in your example, some players of guilds that stopped raiding might have left for another, still raiding guild, or founded a new one

Yeah, you're totally right. As I said, it's a simplistic example that didn't take into consideration many things to avoid making it overly (and unnecessarily) complex.

If a guild has full (100%) gear from NHC and can't beat every boss in HC, then so be it. It means the guild either hits that brick wall and can't continue and has to accept this as fact, or the guild will push past its limits and eventually break that wall.

Not every guild has the will to keep hitting that wall, neither accepting as a fact that "here's how far you can go" is a very appealing reason to play.

"Hey, we've got to this boss, and we can't progress any further. It's all good!" In most cases, those players will just stop playing to have their fun somewhere else.

What was the point again of normal modes or LFR?
Normal modes and LFR don't exist so nothing has to be tweaked ever again.

LFR is tailored towards players that can't participate in organized raiding, and therefore, it's tuned accordingly (25 complete strangers, with little to no team play in most cases, and wildly different skill levels and gear). Of course, if you regularly play in organized raiding, LFR does not present a challenge. at. all. If you consistently raid Heroic bosses, then probably LFR looks just hilariously easy to you. Because you're not the target player.

Normal modes are for players that participate in organized raiding, and Heroic for those guilds that want to put their skill to test, but, this doesn't mean that even on its own scale, a particular boss might need tweaking in the opinion of the developers, or simply, they just feel it's time to tone something down so players that have been stuck on him for some time can progress.

In reality, what seperates most players is the amount of time available to play. Levelling up to max, farming mats (or farming something to pay for mats), running dailies for valor points and rep, learning new encounters and gearing up in either 5man or LFR takes time.

It's not just time. Interest and investment into the game is also important. Take a theorycrafter for example. That kind of player will devote a big amount of time trying to understand how the mechanics of a class work so they can get the maximum DPS/Survivability/Healing out of his character. In turn, this becomes a guide that helps players with less time to dedicate to better play with their characters.

So, it's not about just dismissing those with more time either. If I had to guess, I'd say that what separates players is how important to them is what they do in the game.


Content Difficulty Feedback

Because facerolling through a videogame is fun. No it is not.

For some people it is. Some people only want some mindless fun. Something they can do to relax rather than having to set their mind on overcoming a virtual challenge. That's one of the many reasons why invoking majorities in online discussions just doesn't work.

We all have our own reason to do what we do. Some want to test themselves and improve their skill, some just want to relax and have some fun time with their friends. Some don't even know what the concept of hardcore and casual gaming mean, let alone "skill" or "competitiveness" in something they may not even consider a hobby.

If you just want to relieve some stress there is plenty other things to do. If you just want to relieve some stress then why do you go do something ingame that is too hard for you? WHY DON'T YOU JUST STICK TO LFR and let others enjoy the game?
You can't really asky others to not enjoy the game so you can enjoy your own vision of the game. Neither option is right. Sure, there are areas of the game specifically tailored to a particular group of players (Heroic Raids are better fit for the hardcore crowd), but that shouldn't stop you from trying something different and find out if it's fun or not for you.

And YES it are the unskilled losers who ask for nerfs. Deal with it.

This game is not stressfull, it's not rocketscience, it's piss easy. But for the 'majority' it is stressfull to do heroic raids or challenge modes or even normal mode? I wonder what is challenging in your real life if WoW is already too hard for you.

There you go, the "unskilled losers" ask for nerfs. That's a not very nice way of putting an etiquette over a group of players that may have difficulties overcoming a challenge in the game. There's no real reason why you should go out of your way to also say that then real life for those players must be incredibly difficult. We get it, you consider yourself a very skilled player in World of Warcraft, that's great.

But in a game with as many players as World of Warcraft has, you have to realize that people come from very different backgrounds, some have been playing games for years, some are just starting to discover this world... Therefore, they have different expectations of how they would like to enjoy the content.

Of course, it may look selfish to ask for nerfs if you can overcome the content at its current difficulty, but, isn't it equally selfish to deny others content just because they don't have your skill?

That's what LFR was for. It's what Blizzard has said LFR was for right from the start, yet now you still see a need to make normal modes easier.
Since you mention normal difficulty, I think it's a good opportunity to mention this blog article by Watcher where he explains how developers tune the raid encounters

I may be wrong but I find it incredibly hard to imagine that there is a boss in the game that is absolutely insurmountable to even a casual player.
If you give that person an infinite amount of time (and will) they'll probably overcome the encounter at some point, sure. But what actually happens is that, rather than keep at it, most players stop trying at some point out of frustration.

The will to persevere and continue battling a foe that feels like an unavoidable obstacle is actually not as common as you may think among gamers (otherwise, why would we even have difficulty settings in most games anyways?)

Then why bother with a game based on progression and challenge? Surely you'd be more at home playing Second Life
There are several scales of challenge (and progression). On this game you can even progress solely on PVP or PVE if you so wish. So, this is not really an argument. Everyone knows at which pace they want to play the game, and if they don't know, they'll eventually find out as they encounter things that annoy them and things that don't.

Invoking an unquantitive "some" doesn't make your argument any more valid than his. The problem with you guys at Blizzard nowadays is that rather than having a philosophy / image of a direction you want to take the game in, you buckle in when 20 people throw up a moany post on the forums. You can't develop a game based on the whims of a few, as you said, but it's what you do.

The developers get their information from plenty of sources, it's certainly not just becase "20 people throw up a moany post on the forums". Otherwise, based just on the posts you can find on this forum, you'd see game design change from one extreme to the other with every single patch, which is not really the case (even when the developers change the direction on which they're taking the game).

why nerf (not to be mixed with tweaks and hotfixes) harder content that people enter to seek challenges and when they hit wall they do normal modes to gain better gear and experience

As I mentioned on my previous post, the blog post I linked explains the reasoning the developers use to adjust certain fights

But you can huh? Or where you trolling when you said this? :

"You have two talent specializations. Why not have one for DPS? Even if it's a different healing spec, do you really need it at every single moment of the day? It's your choice to go with two healing specs, and that obviously comes with a downside (just as a tank that decides to go with two different tanking specs and argues his DPS is low on that content).

Proceeding to argue that because you run with a dual healing spec there's no content you can do is not going to get you very far because the answer is simple: use a DPS spec for that content."
There's quite a difference between not being able to do (defeat) something and refusing to use the tools the game offers to do a certain piece of content

avatar75

魔獸世界
我的最愛遊戲之1
3年沒玩了...
覺得60-70等級的時候最讓我懷念...40人副本 MC,BWL.NAXX..
還有團隊的分工合作最重要.

spectorrox

40人副本年代才是王道。。
所有人都很和諧 會互相尊重。。