<<印度教徒报>>中国购苏35BM将可能使印度弃购阵风！

Boilwater

可怜的阵风，三月签不了约。最终还可能第三度被抛弃。。。

马肯科说：“向中国出售苏-35将断然否定‘阵风’式战斗机对印度的价值。”　

他解释说：“‘阵风’式战斗机不可能和卖给中国的苏-35对抗。苏-35的Irbis雷达的探测范围是‘阵风’的泰雷兹RBE2雷达的两倍多，而且能在苏-35被发现、遭到报复性打击前就锁定目标。苏-35的117S发动机也比‘阵风’的斯奈克玛M88强大得多。”

全篇的重点在上面！

外媒称，俄罗斯即将恢复向中国提供先进武器平台。此举或许对印度有影响。

　　据《印度教徒报》网站3月8日报道，俄罗斯在2012年底同中国签署了一项出售4艘“阿穆尔-1650”型柴油潜艇的框架协议。2013年1月，中俄两国政府又签署一项协议，由俄罗斯向中国提供最新式苏-35远程战斗机。

　　报道指出，如果这两项协议顺利执行，那将是俄罗斯在10年里首次向中国提供进攻型武器。这也将标志着俄罗斯向中国提供的武器平台第一次超过印度军火库中的俄制系统。而过去的规则刚好相反。

　　例如，俄罗斯过去卖给中国的苏-30MKK喷气式战斗机比不上大约在同一时期卖给印度的苏-30MKI。卖给中国的飞机，雷达较差且没有卖给印度飞机的那种推力矢量发动机。

　　如今情况看来发生了逆转。“阿穆尔-1650”潜艇比印度海军库存的“基洛”级潜艇远为安静和强大。据俄罗斯顶尖军事专家康斯坦丁·马肯科说，印度的苏-30MKI赶不上中国的苏-35。后者由更强大的推力发动机驱动，而且自夸装有更精密的雷达、航空电子设备和武器。

　　马肯科认为，中国购买苏-35的行动也将令人质疑印度计划购买法国“阵风”式战斗机是否明智。

　　马肯科说：“向中国出售苏-35将断然否定‘阵风’式战斗机对印度的价值。”

　　他解释说：“‘阵风’式战斗机不可能和卖给中国的苏-35对抗。苏-35的Irbis雷达的探测范围是‘阵风’的泰雷兹RBE2雷达的两倍多，而且能在苏-35被发现、遭到报复性打击前就锁定目标。苏-35的117S发动机也比‘阵风’的斯奈克玛M88强大得多。”

　　报道说，向中国提供比印度更先进的武器平台的做法，似乎与一些基本的地缘政治现实相抵触。印度仍然是俄罗斯最信任的伙伴，其国防需求从未遭到过拒绝。相比之下，俄罗斯一直对中国“龙”感到担心，并怀疑中国对资源丰富但人烟稀少的西伯利亚地区的意图。

　　报道认为，应该在中美俄三角的地缘政治游戏这一背景下，看待俄重新对华提供尖端武器一事。


　　俄罗斯和中国恢复国防关系是在它们同美国的关系遭遇惊涛骇浪之际发生的。俄罗斯对奥巴马的“重启”政策非常失望，因为俄罗斯将这一政策视作美国从俄罗斯获取单边让步的一个工具，而中国认为奥巴马在亚太地区进行战略调整的目的是遏制中国。

　　俄罗斯和中国加强国防关系是两国整体关系强劲发展的衍生物。中国是俄罗斯最大的商业伙伴，今年的双边贸易有望达到900亿美元，到2020年会激增至2000亿美元。普京把中国的崛起描述为“在我们的经济航程中借助中国风的一个机会”。

　　这与俄印之间贸易萧条的情形形成鲜明对比。2012年两国的贸易额为110亿美元，两国政府为2015年制定的200亿美元的贸易额也显得缺乏雄心。

　　报道说，在俄罗斯的雷达屏幕上，印度有被中国遮盖光芒的危险。正如俄罗斯主要的商业日报《生意人报》最近指出的，直到如今，从上至下的俄罗斯官员都还倾向于带着“昏昏欲睡的冷漠”看待印度，普京2012年对印度的访问也是“无意义的礼节”多于实质内容。

http://www.huangpujs.cn/news/junshipinglun/2013/0311/10681.html

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/2013-03-11/0918718200.html

树头

军购是国家间错综复杂的利益互动关系,牵一发足于动全身...

树头

一报还一报,有得便有失.
印度人放弃选购传统的俄式装备必将遭遇报复举动..
法国人的短视行为必将被逐出部分大陆市场份额..

笑吼

可能想打美国的F-18F或F-35的主意。

superljlk

  苏-35的Irbis雷达的探测范围是‘阵风’的泰雷兹RBE2雷达的两倍多，而且能在苏-35被发现、遭到报复性打击前就锁定目标。苏-35的117S发动机也比‘阵风’的斯奈克玛M88强大得多。”

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  挺能意淫。苏35雷达探测远所以就超过阵风的雷达了？雷达只用看探测范围这1个指标么？发动机比较强所以飞机较好，那f404比rd93强，是不是lca就超过枭龙呢？

Boilwater

superljlk 发表于 19-3-2013 01:28 PM
苏-35的Irbis雷达的探测范围是‘阵风’的泰雷兹RBE2雷达的两倍多，而且能在苏-35被发现、遭到报复性打击前 ...

用意淫这两个字很奇怪，印度人怎会意淫中国买的俄国货？
最多是意淫印度国产战机胜J10吧！ 　

waja2000

superljlk 发表于 19-3-2013 01:28 PM

挺能意淫。苏35雷达探测远所以就超过阵风的雷达了？雷达只用看探测范围这1个指标么？发动机比较强所以飞机较好，那f404比rd93强，是不是lca就超过枭龙呢？

别的网站拿来的
“按照俄罗斯的标准，苏-35属于第4++级战斗机，采用大量最新的材料、工艺和技术。比如机身材料大量使用钛合金，使飞行寿命延长到6000小时。最大起飞重量34.5吨，最大战斗载荷8吨，最大航速2.25马赫，可以挂装俄制各种导弹、炸弹和火箭等。飞机还装备了尖端的“雪豹-E”型相控阵雷达系统，可以在400公里距离截获3平方米的目标，甚至在90公里距离截获0.01平方米的超低可观测性目标."

如果Irbis-E探测远没有什么意思，上面说90公里距离截获0.01平方米，那样Su-35得准备被meteor BVRAAM伺候了... 台风/阵风 RCS都是在0.01~0.001左右。
而Su-35的1～3平方米的RCS，随便什么先进一点的PESA/AESA雷达超过200km都能探测到。

MARK-II

所謂的遠距探測距離，是在某種特定條件下才能做到。

SU-35S所使用的Irbis-E PESA雷達，探測性能接近更昂貴的AESA雷達，但在反應速度，能量效應，使用壽命仍遜於AESA。

第一例，在100平方度視野（10X10度範圍），對飛行高度5000公尺以上，RCS達到3平方公尺目標，以天空為背景的迎面探測，達到400km。

第二例，在300平方度視野(17X17度範圍），迎面探測降到200km。
如果是追擊探測，第一例大約150km+, 第二例大約80km。

外銷型的對空探測能力，可能有所限制和降低。

MARK-II

樓主所引用的這篇垃圾文章，完全沒有可讀之處。

印度在進行的sUPER 30計劃，為超過40架SU-30 MKI升級機載電腦，電戰系統，Zhuk-AE AESA雷達，以及發射Brahmos遠程導彈.

印度也將繼俄羅斯之後，最快得到T-50隱形戰鬥機的國家。

中國買SU-35S，並不會影響印度空軍的發展進程。

Boilwater

MARK-II 发表于 19-3-2013 04:30 PM
樓主所引用的這篇垃圾文章，完全沒有可讀之處。

印度在進行的sUPER 30計劃，為超過40架SU-30 MKI升級機載 ...

阵风’式战斗机不可能和卖给中国的苏-35对抗。苏-35的Irbis雷达的探测范围是‘阵风’的泰雷兹RBE2雷达的两倍多，而且能在苏-35被发现、遭到报复性打击前就锁定目标。苏-35的117S发动机也比‘阵风’的斯奈克玛M88强大得多




哈哈哈！
有可讀之處啊！
完全沒有可讀之處是因为酸葡萄心理！
阵风对抗不了SU35BM是因为RCS高，而且雷达比台风弱。
台风RCS 是4++里面最低的，绝对能够先发现RCS比阵风更高的SU35BM.  

MARK-II

有人還是搞不懂何謂印度的MMRCA！

大國空軍戰鬥機架構，有區分重型Heavy，中型Medium，輕型Light。

印度的Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft(中型多功能戰鬥機),簡稱MMRCA,是用來支援SU-30 MKI重型戰鬥轟炸機，MMRCA在印度空军是屬於Medium Tier，定位低于SU-30MKI主力戰鬥機，而高於LCA Tejas輕型戰鬥機。從數量也看得出來，SU-30MKI計劃造272架，MMRCA只計劃造126架。

Boilwater

有人還是搞不懂，阵风比不上SU35BM, SU30MKI和SU30MKM，所以跟本不适合我军！
我军需要的是空战能有机会胜过新加坡F15SG和印尼SU30MK2的低RCS 4。5代中型多功能战机！

MARK-II

為何中國要買SU-35S? 中國殲11B， 殲10A/B的航電雖足以對抗F-16，F-15，其國產導彈只能和對手打平手，沒明顯優勢。除了駐日的F-22，未來中國的周邊將出現F-35，T-50，駐日F-22尤其難防，目前有能力抵消F-22威脅的量產戰鬥機，只有SU-35S。
SU-35S雖然不比F-22全面採用先進科技，但其遠距探測雷達及超長程武器，仍有巨大的戰鬥力，直接進口就是最快最有效的方法。我估計中國買SU-35S其實是應付F22/F-35，劍指釣魚島！

Boilwater

MARK-II 发表于 19-3-2013 08:32 PM


為何中國要買SU-35S? 中國殲11B， 殲10A/B的航電雖足以對抗F-16，F-15，其國產導彈只能和對手打平手，沒明顯優勢。除了駐日的F-22，未來中國的周邊將出現F-35，T-50，駐日F-22尤其難防，目前有能力抵消F-22威脅的量產戰鬥機，只有SU-35S。
SU-35S雖然不比F-22全面採用先進科技，但其遠距探測雷達及超長程武器，仍有巨大的戰鬥力，直接進口就是最快最有效的方法。我估計中國買SU-35S其實是應付F22/F-35，劍指釣魚島！

中國買SU-35S来應付F22/F-35，实在是一个笑话！
SU-35S的RCS值和阵风一样都很高！它的超長程武器在超長程跟本发现不了F22/F-35！反而是在发现F22/F-35之前，已被AIM120-C或更新的版本击落！

中国的未来是J20/J31,买SU-35S原本只想买2架来研究！后来俄方要卖48架，中国减到24架！连中国原本只想买2架都不知道，还大言说中國買SU-35S其實是應付F22/F-35！遗笑大方！

Boilwater

放弃阵风的声浪再起！


Antony Must Cancel Rafale Deal!
by Rajinder Puri

Fresh developments have made it imperative that the government cancel the 62000 crore Rafale fighter jet deal. The defence ministry is staggering from one corruption scandal to another. What is surprising is that even though warning signals are given in time the government refuses to heed them. Even while the government is mired in the Augusta Westland Helicopter scam the threat of the Rafale fighter jet scam is looming over its head. Readers might recall that one year ago in March 2012 it was pointed out in these columns that there was a cloud over the Rafale deal.

Broadly three reasons were cited why the deal was questionable.

First, the opposition shadow defence minister of Britain Ms. Seabeck criticized Prime Minister David Cameron for allowing Rafale to get the Indian contract over Britain’s Typhoon fighter jet also in the race. By implication Ms. Seabeck was alleging that the French got the contract because of superior public relations. Reading between the lines it meant that Britain did not attempt to counter kickbacks paid by the French. Thereby Britain lost many jobs while its employment situation was critical.

Secondly, to reinforce this innuendo London’s prestigious newspaper The Guardian went a step further. It wrote: “He (Cameron) appears to have no links with India’s real decision makers, the Gandhi family… Power within India’s ruling Congress Party rests with the Gandhis.” The obvious question arose why the Gandhis were relevant when no member of the family had direct responsibility in the Defence Ministry. It might be noted that this Guardian report came much before Italian authorities had disclosed in their charge sheet on the Augusta Westland Helicopter scam that 28 million Euros bribe had been paid to “the family” in India. Nor is it without significance that one of the two key middlemen who allegedly paid bribes in the Augusta Westland deal was also a middleman acting for the Dassault Company that manufactures the Rafale fighter jet. He is Mr. Christian Michel based in London.

Thirdly it was reported that two senior officials of the defence ministry who were members of the contract negotiation committee questioned the methods adopted by it to conclude that the Rafale fighter jet had the lowest bid for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal. At the final stages Rafale had edged out the British fighter jet Typhoon while the other competitors from the US, Russia and Sweden had been eliminated earlier. Rafale knocked out the American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG 35 and Sweden’s Gripen on the basis of technical performance. It defeated Britain’s Typhoon on life-cycle costs.

It might be recalled that in April 2009 Raphael was officially debarred during the technical evaluation stage for non-compliance. The aircraft was disallowed participation in the next stage of field trials. There were gaps in the technical bid submitted by Raphael team. The defence ministry sought clarifications from the French company but received unsatisfactory answers. Thereafter the ministry excluded Rafale from further participation in the tender. But mysteriously a month later Rafale was back in the race! A defence ministry official said: “Since it was only paper evaluation and the French company Dassault Aviation has now supplied the missing answers, the Defense Procurement Board has decided to allow Rafale to take part in the actual field trials.”

It is in this background that the latest omission by the Dassault Company which owns Rafale must be considered.

From the details provided by the company it is not clearly specified that the costs quoted by it include the transfer of technology and training related to the Rafale fighter jet. The defence ministry has sought a written commitment from the company that these be included in the cost. The Dassault Company is not providing the written commitment. The earlier act of non-compliance by the company was subsequently papered over by the defence ministry through an unconvincing explanation. Surely the defence ministry should not accept this latest act of non-compliance. If the company does not promptly do the needful Mr. Antony should cancel the deal. Enough is enough.

Mr. Antony as yet has a reputation for personal probity despite the scandals surrounding his ministry. People believe he is personally clean. But his reputation will be in tatters if he goes through with the Raphael deal. It is small comfort for the public if a minister does not personally accept bribes but allows those he cannot afford to displease to do so in order to safeguard his position. Mr. Antony cannot any longer afford to look the other way. He has to stop the rot. The ultimate tragedy is of course that even quality equipment sorely required by our armed forces is being denied to them because greedy politicians are not being prevented from putting their hands in the till. Because of corruption the nation is losing money. Because of corruption our armed forces are losing capability.

http://www.udayindia.org/content_23march2013/my-word.html

waja2000

Boilwater 发表于 20-3-2013 01:17 AM
中國買SU-35S来應付F22/F-35，实在是一个笑话！
SU-3 ...

其实你应该多多去了解每一架战机的特性, 相比其他先进战机，俄罗斯很久以前的战斗机设计思路在Su-30/35系列恰恰好更可以对付/侦查隐形战机，真是机缘 ... 加上便宜， 这也是很多国家都愿意购买的原因。Su-35独特的OLS前红外观瞄系统, L-band雷达，DAS，MAWS, 还有其他特性 ...  应该看看实战的战法，特性， 不止单单看Spec。

看看下面战斗严厉的分析，Chunk驾驶F-22。希望你看明白

Chuck starts.  “I’m king of the skies,” he claims. “I supercruise at 52,000 feet and Mach 1.7.  Boris, I can see you from ~100 nm, and my AIM-120D launch range at this Mach is 70 nm.  You are one dead Flanker.”  Boris acknowledges the performance of the APG-77 and the Raptor, but replies, “Your missiles are easy to avoid.  When you fire, my OLS-35 will see the flare, and I will turn away to out-run the missile.  You need to fire closer than 50 nm – even then at 50,000 feet and Mach 1.2, my Flanker can out-turn your missile.  If you are side or rear on I can get a lock-on at ~40 nm and I have a choice of seeker heads, so you might wear an R-77M in the backside.”  “No way Boris,” Chuck replies, “I know that game. I’m head on and you can’t see me until about ~15 nm. If I have not killed you at 50 nautical, I’m outa there at the speed of heat.” Boris and Chuck concede that there might be a nil-all draw, with Chuck being untouchable because of the Raptor’s stealth, altitude and speed and the well defended Su-35-1 defeating the Raptor’s missiles [1].

Now Boris makes his point.  “Comrade Johan, I have something special for you.  My IRBIS-E will see you head-on at ~25nm, but I fly my boys very wide and share the paints on our digital network.  At side and rear looks, I see you at ~45 nm and my ramjet RVV-AE-PDs can get you at that range.”  “No way”, Johan responds, “my APG-81 radar will see you at ~75 nm and I can launch at 50 nm.  If you fire, my DAS will see the missile at launch, so I’ll turn away to break lock”.  “And my wingman will see you in the turn, computer network will still know where you are, and we will skewer you in the cross-fire” is Boris’s riposte, “and you will run out of missiles before I do,  If I duck your AIM-120D shots, I will win easily”.  They bicker about the strengths of their own aircraft and weaknesses of the other’s and Johan grudgingly agrees the Flanker might be the winner.

Chuck and Johan stay in the bar after Boris is unexpectedly ‘called away’ by men in dark coats, and agree that work needs to be done on improving the AIM-120D’s terminal lethality.

Essentially, this is a deadly play between stealth, agility, sensors and missiles.  From the front quarter the Raptor’s 0.0001 square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS) and the Lightning II’s 0.001 square metres make them difficult targets.  The Flanker-E Plus, while having a reduced radar signature, still has a residual RCS of about 2 square metres, such that the F-22A and the F-35 will see the Su-35-1 way beyond their missile launch range.  The Su-35-1 struggles to see the F-22A on radar, but can find the F-35’s 0.01 square metre lower side and rear RCS.  The AIM-120D is a fine missile, but the Su-35-1 has finer defences, so the missile kill probabilities are likely to be low， When out of missiles, the F-22 Raptor can escape.  The F-35 Lightning II cannot.

Boilwater

waja2000 发表于 20-3-2013 11:29 AM
其实你应该多多去了解每一架战机的特性, 相比其他先进战机，俄罗斯很久以前的战斗机设计思路在Su-30/35系 ...

SU-35S有个号称300km+超远距的空空导弹。
可是SU-35S单机跟本没有能力在130km以上的距离发现F35/F22！（除非有其他飞机或地海雷达配合)
130km以下已经是在F35/F22的射程了！
在130km距离以下,单机对单机谁会先发现谁？

MARK-II

waja2000 发表于 20-3-2013 11:29 AM
其实你应该多多去了解每一架战机的特性, 相比其他先进战机，俄罗斯很久以前的战斗机设计思路在Su-30/35系 ...

我看過楊可夫斯基的書＂玄武雙尊＂，內容就是專寫T-50和SU-35S，分析得極為透徹，這兩款俄系戰鬥機太強了。

Boilwater

MARK-II 发表于 20-3-2013 12:00 PM
我看過楊可夫斯基的書＂玄武雙尊＂，內容就是專寫T-50和SU-35S，分析得極為透徹，這兩款俄系戰鬥機太強了 ...

The Flanker-E Plus, while having a reduced radar signature, still has a residual RCS of about 2 square metres！

借Waja大师的贴来回你。

相对之下阵风RCS比苏35BM好一点点而已，但台风在1 square metre以下！

superljlk

waja2000 发表于 19-3-2013 03:30 PM
别的网站拿来的
“按照俄罗斯的标准，苏-35属于第4++级战斗机，采用大量最新的材料、工艺和技术。比如机 ...

   这个是没明白我的意思。
  雷达不是光看探测距离的，以毛子武器为例，很多东西看似强大（特别是纸面上），其实水分很多。拿su27来说，那个导弹逼近预警系统，该响的时候不响，不该响的时候响个不停，跟没有一样，为毛呢？雷达也是这样，距离只是一方面，抗干扰性，低探测性重不重要？毛子货恰恰在这些方面不行。毛子和中国在雷达方面和欧洲有差距，更不及美国，不是短时间能改变的。